Talk:Elizabeth Braddock (Earth-616)
I think having a current and former powers section makes things a little more organized. Kokushishin 15:39, 24 April 2006 (Eastern Daylight Time) Exodus cloak needs to provide sources and basis for the significant changes made to the article, otherwise they seem POV oriented and baseless. Tonga -- Well there's two major issues with the article...1.) There is no actual source or comic where Psylocke has been stated to be a First Order telepath...and 2.) The Shadow King saw right through her cloaking form during Psi War..the way these two points are currently conveyed in the article seem heavly inaccurate, false and POV oriented....and I also believe the part about mind control was unfairly edited it out..giving the illusion that Betsy can manipulate more then one person via mind control...she's never demonstrated this feat..ExodusCloak The orders and such are really just add complication. It's basically another way of saying "she's powerful."Kokushishin 09:01, 17 September 2006 (Eastern Daylight Time) -- All very true, and she is very powerful...it's just that she's never been labeled one...ExodusCloak No characters are specifically labelled "high order", except when a writer happens to mention it. Nearly all "high order" telepaths that have not been explicitly labelled so. Marvel does not use the term in guides such as "Marvel Universe". If it is removed from Betsy's page than it should be removed from all other MDP pages...including Emma Frost. The term should be consistently applied or not used at all. She clearly formerly met all of the criteria. As far as Shadow King, some would argue that was a ploy to lower his defenses, which he did, and she was able to defeat him and contain him. Betsy has manipulated a variety of people with mind control in her time. No place does it state that she can only manipulate a single person at a time. Tonga The only actual 'first order' tidbit I can find from digging through stuff refers to X-Man. Gone for now until someone can point it out.Kokushishin 19:06, 18 September 2006 (Eastern Daylight Time) Either someone provides sources for every other "first order" telepath or it comes off everyone. No double standards here. Please name something other "first order" telepaths can do that Betsy couldn't when she was a telepath. I'm not puring through my comics looking for the source unless everyone else does for the other characters. It seems to me that the person making the changes should have to provide a source that says she is not a first order telepath, or at least present an argument that she is weaker than other supposed "first order" telepaths. She defeated Shadow King, another "supposed" first order telepath, and she's the only telepath to do this...she imprisoned him on the astral plane. It should be noted that I didn't originally put this in the article and I'm not trying to add anything, I'm just maintaining what's been in place for a while without change. Tonga That's like saying prove that Betsy isn't an Omega mutant...you can't because it's never been disproved...she's not one because it's never been stated..anything else is speculation and goes against wikipedias POV rule...btw She did not imprison the Shadow King as shown in the recent Excalibur comics...he instead uses his powers to enter another dimension and formed the Dark X-Men...and she didn't over power the Shadow King in Psi-War either....she go beaten quite badly...might I add....she only won because the Shadow king got arrogant and made a novice mistake which was leaving his nexus unguarded...and this was actually stated in the comic... Here's the First Order telepath scans for Emma and Exodus.. http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uncxmenv131222roughercj0.jpg http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6677/axmb113nx4.jpg The point about the Shadow King is moot...because she cursed herself in the comic for not being able to keep Storm and Ainet cloaked from the Shadow King...meaning it wasn't her ploy because Psylocke herself said she couldn't...and she didn't contain him...as for the mind control thing...I didn't add write that..but do you recall an incident where she's manipulated more then one persons mind at the same time?(Please name a source) Because I don't remember any... Also why was her equipment and weapons edited....wasn't she known for her Katana and Captain Britan costume as well as the Armour she recieved in UXM 218? ExodusCloak So can someone please tell me on what basis are we keeping Psylocke a First order telepath? Can someone at least provide proof of Psylocke being stated as a first order? Because Tonga just edited the artical and dismissed my point entirely...ExodusCloak Ok, i'll admit my knowledge is based primarily on Uncanny X-Men up until Onslaught, but Psylocke never demonstrates having the telepathic abilities of any of Emma, Professor X, or Jean Grey (admittedly the last of these is an Omega level mutant). She has to make a connection via her psychic knife, a crippling limitation compared to other known telepaths. Additionally, controlling more than one person should be impossible because she can only manifest one psychic knife at a time. Captain Britain uniform - She also demonstrated very different powers in the same issue she wore this (and a previous issue), but that seems to have been retconned from the continuity. (This is from the Pre-Excalibur (vol 1) Captain Britain series.) One could hardly say she's well known for that armor since she wore it exactly once, and giving overly much acknowledgement to those issues would require adding yet another layer of 'former powers'. Squirrelloid Squirrely, your knowledge of Psylocke is clearly limited. Psylocke spent more than five years in the comics as a high order telepath before switching bodies and losing a significant amount of her psychic abilities (they were diluted with Kwannan). It was at this time she manifested the psychic knife. She DID NOT need to make a connection with her psychic knife...that's complete noob B.S. The armor discussed was the armor she wore in Uncanny, which she was well known for. Do not make unilateral changes without consensus, especially when they are clearly wrong. I am just maintaining the status quo before ExodusCloak tried to change the article without sourcing, and now you make significant changes that have no basis in fact and show a limited knowledge of the character. Tonga Ok, first, i was referring to the Captain Britain armor (it is armor), hence the Captain Britain header on that paragraph. I know the body armor from early to mid 200s UXM, i didn't even talk about it, nor change anything related to it. Now, i will confess to working mostly off memory because my collection is mostly packed away (and i've mostly got my really early X-Men issues out), but her appearances as an X-Man range from the Mutant Massacre till her walk through the Siege Perilous in ~250-1. During that time she totally fails to psychically overpower Sabertooth (213) instead winning through deception rather than force, and shows no real predilection for overpowering or blasting people telepathically. Rather, she often misdirects with illusion (which i never contested) and keeps the team linked together for communication. Not the hallmarks of a high-order telepath, but rather the subtle uses of someone who is not a powerful telepath, but a competent one who knows how to make the most of it. The only time she ever uses anything approaching mind-control that i remember is making the X-Men go through the siege perilous, and this is shown as being accomplished by telepathic persuasion rather than brute force. Post body-switch, she never did anything significant with her power without using her psychic knife that I know of. If you have counter-examples, please provide issue numbers. The only people she didn't seem to need her knife to use her power on were her teammates, with whom she already had a connection. Really, this reveals one problem is we need multiple 'former powers sections' so that each is specific to an incarnation of the character, since she's undergone multiple significant changes. The first-order psi part is definitely questionable, it doesn't fit the character's modus operandi or any depictions of her power use that I am aware of. Oh, and speaking of incorrect designations - can i get a source for her being blonde in her original body? She's got purple hair in all her UXM appearances, and purple hair in Captain Britain (vol 2) and Mighty World of Marvel. I don't have New Mutants Annual #2 or Captain Britain vol 1 to check her first appearances - is she really blonde? -Squirrelloid Tonga you still haven't provided proof of her being called a High Order Telepath...until then she is not one...and by you're maintaining a speculative opinion without providing a source...she has never been labeled a first order Psi...to my knowledge and I own every UXM, AXM and NXM comic printed...please provide proof....ExodusCloak